Perfect example of point v sights
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Perfect example of point v sights
by ronryder on Tue 30 Jun - 10:23
I started this thread as some seemed concernced about it drifiting too far on the other sight topic.
Anyone catch the "warriors" series the other night? Its often kind of phony, and subjective but where the russiaon spec op techniques versus the Green beret guys, was a perfect example of how speed cant make up for lousy trigger control, or pointing instead of using the sights as the good Lord intended.
It was difficult to determine the distance to the targets, full size manniquins, but they had I think 5 targets to engage, the russkys shooting Makarovs, and the GB using Beretta M9s.
Now the fact that the Russkys beat the M9 shooters with a gun that perhaps cost 50 bucks, to one costing around 150 (cost to our govt) might be telling in its self. It aint what you got its what you do withj what you got.
And we might compare a single action pistol to a DA pistol perofrmance as well, in first shoot out of the leather accuracy, but that as well is another topic.
Lets just say there is a reason the winning competitive pistol shooters, use a SA platform for the most part.
First shot out of the holster accuracy being way over and easier than the first shout from a DA, and actually hiting somewhere in the same county.
So the Russkys hit all their shots double tap, pretty much in a group that could be covered by a hand. They basically were walking up to the target, with the gun held eye level, but believe it, piss poor sights or no, they were not "point shooting" from the hip. All there shots were in the noggin too with a couple of low ones in the upper chest. Par for the course, cause most spec op guys aim for the head when using a pistol.
Now, our guys ran the course near ten seconds faster, they engaged the target several feet further away, rightfully relying on the better sights, and a more accurate pistol over a Makarov. That is they would have been an advantage if actually used properly.
But they still got beat for what was judged a "killing" hit. One of their shots was a complete miss, and two just barely grazed the side of the manniguin, which shows either one heck of a jerk, or they fell back into point shooting. But hey, they shot fast though.
Did I forget to mention, that both sides were wearing NVG? So certainly, that would add some challenge as well.
Did anyone ever read the shooting reports, where hits tend to be into the hands, or arms? Thats cause the shooter is focused on the other guys gun.
Untill just recently, when his speed shooting records were broken, a guy named Ed McGivern was the king of "fast and fancy revolver" shooting. IN fact, thats the name of his book I believe. Anyone wishing to study up on the topic, its well worth the money. AND through the book, he discusses the importance of proper trigger control, and USE of sights, EVEN IN HIS ARIAL shooting!
Now he does not mention much about pistols, as revolvers actually can be fired faster, due to the cycling of the slide on a pistol. AS well, his records were beat with a more modern S W design "short action" revolver, which offers faster lock time, than the Smiths that he used.
WE are talking minute differences, but it would be interesting to see what he could have done with the newer actions at present.
One other thing that some might not understand, the guys that shoot fast, and use their sights, they are generally not splitting the light on both sides exactly, as does a bullseye shooter. If the plate is a full size target, and only ten yards out or some such, they can be half a sight blade of and still hit it, and keep up the speed, thus the "flash sight picture"
But as said, the games tend to emphasize high cap guns, and several mag changes, and for most of us, our CCW guns are more often 5 or 6 shot revolvers, or maybe the mini pistols. Short barrels and even the best of sights on such, are a challenge over a full size handgun.
Dumping 5 shots in a hurry, is a bad habit in that case. Especially if so fast they hit in the back 40
Anyone catch the "warriors" series the other night? Its often kind of phony, and subjective but where the russiaon spec op techniques versus the Green beret guys, was a perfect example of how speed cant make up for lousy trigger control, or pointing instead of using the sights as the good Lord intended.
It was difficult to determine the distance to the targets, full size manniquins, but they had I think 5 targets to engage, the russkys shooting Makarovs, and the GB using Beretta M9s.
Now the fact that the Russkys beat the M9 shooters with a gun that perhaps cost 50 bucks, to one costing around 150 (cost to our govt) might be telling in its self. It aint what you got its what you do withj what you got.
And we might compare a single action pistol to a DA pistol perofrmance as well, in first shoot out of the leather accuracy, but that as well is another topic.
Lets just say there is a reason the winning competitive pistol shooters, use a SA platform for the most part.
First shot out of the holster accuracy being way over and easier than the first shout from a DA, and actually hiting somewhere in the same county.
So the Russkys hit all their shots double tap, pretty much in a group that could be covered by a hand. They basically were walking up to the target, with the gun held eye level, but believe it, piss poor sights or no, they were not "point shooting" from the hip. All there shots were in the noggin too with a couple of low ones in the upper chest. Par for the course, cause most spec op guys aim for the head when using a pistol.
Now, our guys ran the course near ten seconds faster, they engaged the target several feet further away, rightfully relying on the better sights, and a more accurate pistol over a Makarov. That is they would have been an advantage if actually used properly.
But they still got beat for what was judged a "killing" hit. One of their shots was a complete miss, and two just barely grazed the side of the manniguin, which shows either one heck of a jerk, or they fell back into point shooting. But hey, they shot fast though.
Did I forget to mention, that both sides were wearing NVG? So certainly, that would add some challenge as well.
Did anyone ever read the shooting reports, where hits tend to be into the hands, or arms? Thats cause the shooter is focused on the other guys gun.
Untill just recently, when his speed shooting records were broken, a guy named Ed McGivern was the king of "fast and fancy revolver" shooting. IN fact, thats the name of his book I believe. Anyone wishing to study up on the topic, its well worth the money. AND through the book, he discusses the importance of proper trigger control, and USE of sights, EVEN IN HIS ARIAL shooting!
Now he does not mention much about pistols, as revolvers actually can be fired faster, due to the cycling of the slide on a pistol. AS well, his records were beat with a more modern S W design "short action" revolver, which offers faster lock time, than the Smiths that he used.
WE are talking minute differences, but it would be interesting to see what he could have done with the newer actions at present.
One other thing that some might not understand, the guys that shoot fast, and use their sights, they are generally not splitting the light on both sides exactly, as does a bullseye shooter. If the plate is a full size target, and only ten yards out or some such, they can be half a sight blade of and still hit it, and keep up the speed, thus the "flash sight picture"
But as said, the games tend to emphasize high cap guns, and several mag changes, and for most of us, our CCW guns are more often 5 or 6 shot revolvers, or maybe the mini pistols. Short barrels and even the best of sights on such, are a challenge over a full size handgun.
Dumping 5 shots in a hurry, is a bad habit in that case. Especially if so fast they hit in the back 40
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by jackdog on Tue 30 Jun - 12:52
"So the Russkys hit all their shots double tap, pretty much in a group that could be covered by a hand. They basically were walking up to the target, with the gun held eye level, but believe it, piss poor sights or no, they were not "point shooting" from the hip. All there shots were in the noggin too with a couple of low ones in the upper chest. Par for the course, cause most spec op guys aim for the head when using a pistol."
So what or whom ever gave you the idea that point shooting is from the hip. I would suggest that you study up on point shooting techniques.
fact is the Russians very well have been point shooting. Do you know or did they say that the Russians were using their sights.
So what or whom ever gave you the idea that point shooting is from the hip. I would suggest that you study up on point shooting techniques.
fact is the Russians very well have been point shooting. Do you know or did they say that the Russians were using their sights.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by James on Tue 30 Jun - 16:40
Shooting from "the hip" is not particularly "point shooting"... or at least not what a lot of us call point shooting anyway. "Shooting from the hip" old west movie style is quite a bit different. Usually it is done one handed and takes one hell of a lot more practice to even get reasonably half good where as "point shooting" can be done by the majority of people with just a decent amount of practice. So don't let semantics sway you that point shooting is worthless.
When i do what i call point shooting it is done 2 handed arms mostly extended with the gun approximately chest high to maybe chin high with a slight forward lean. Certainly not high enough to look down the sights. The first 1 or 2 shots are fairly quick and usually by the third shot i would be more than likely using the sights. A lot of people whether they realize it or not on that first shot are basically doing what i would call point shooting, that is they fire before they have the gun up to eye level to where they can actually use the sights.
With reasonable practice using the navel as center of mass i can, and so can most people, put all my rounds in the black on a man sized target. Will they all be in a 3" circle? Hell no they won't and as far as i am concerned i wouldn't want them so. If i fire 5 shots, i would like to see one in the left lung, one in the gut, one in the right lung, maybe one center chest, and heck why not one in the crotch. I like lots of nice holes bleeding all over the place, maybe i get lucky and hit something vital but it will sure as heck take his mind off shooting at me if i can get them there quick enough.
We are not talking target shooting here we are talking life and death combat shooting where you don't get extra points for a 2" group of 5 shots but instead you may just walk away alive if you can get 5 into the bad guy before he can do the same to you. I'm not talking spray and pray here i am talking hitting the target quickly and often.
That's my version of "point shooting" not some Wild Bill, or Matt Dillion gunslinger out of Hollywood who in real life probably missed 5 times more than they hit.
When i do what i call point shooting it is done 2 handed arms mostly extended with the gun approximately chest high to maybe chin high with a slight forward lean. Certainly not high enough to look down the sights. The first 1 or 2 shots are fairly quick and usually by the third shot i would be more than likely using the sights. A lot of people whether they realize it or not on that first shot are basically doing what i would call point shooting, that is they fire before they have the gun up to eye level to where they can actually use the sights.
With reasonable practice using the navel as center of mass i can, and so can most people, put all my rounds in the black on a man sized target. Will they all be in a 3" circle? Hell no they won't and as far as i am concerned i wouldn't want them so. If i fire 5 shots, i would like to see one in the left lung, one in the gut, one in the right lung, maybe one center chest, and heck why not one in the crotch. I like lots of nice holes bleeding all over the place, maybe i get lucky and hit something vital but it will sure as heck take his mind off shooting at me if i can get them there quick enough.
We are not talking target shooting here we are talking life and death combat shooting where you don't get extra points for a 2" group of 5 shots but instead you may just walk away alive if you can get 5 into the bad guy before he can do the same to you. I'm not talking spray and pray here i am talking hitting the target quickly and often.
That's my version of "point shooting" not some Wild Bill, or Matt Dillion gunslinger out of Hollywood who in real life probably missed 5 times more than they hit.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by towerclimber on Tue 30 Jun - 17:09
LOL!!! I think matt Dillon used blanks in those pistols of his. rofl!
Just kidding ya! don't bludgeon me... rofl!
Just kidding ya! don't bludgeon me... rofl!
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by jackdog on Tue 30 Jun - 19:02
James that is indeed what point shooting is. welcome to the club James.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by towerclimber on Tue 30 Jun - 19:31
Lots of times I see folks scoff at the old-timers like James and Jackdog. "well that's just irresponsible gun handling"..blah blah blah.
The truth is that sometimes it's an ugly world out there. Bad things will never happen like you plan for them. I think an aquaintance on another gun board put it best.."in a perfect world, you would draw, take careful aim and squeeze gently..in reality, you get off the X as fast as you can and shoot them into the ground."
These guys are old in a time when so many of us don't GET to grow old. Logic dictates that they've gotten to where they are by careful thought, decent planning and a little luck.
Everyone is welcome to believe as they please. As for me? when I see these old timers post their simple wisdom, I think of my Grandmother, who lived to be 104 years old. She had a 16 gauge side by side shotgun to help those who didn't understand that she meant what she said.
I asked her once, when she was 86, how she got to be so old. She replied "I mind my own business, and make sure others do the same".
In truth, these old timers have been our age. we've never been theirs.. I have respect for them just for that!
I realize there are several different ways to do things. I also know what some of you other fellows don't. I'm privy to the fact that Jackdog had more than a couple of tours in war zones. The bloody ugly ones too. You spend a couple of years doing that sort of thing and, providing you survive, you learn quite a bit about the human animal. what they're capable of, what they will do. you learn to size a person up when you meet them. For a friend, you learn to look for quality, because, anything else is a risk to yourself and all you hold dear. It makes for a pretty spartan life, friend wise..but you know the ones you have will go over the mountain to get the coon for you if you need it.
You also learn the no bullshit rules for surviving a gunfight. The alternative is very simple. you get dead.
At one time I was young and stupid and I too joined the Infantry and went off to participate in Uncle Sam's school for wayward children. I too learned in the manner that Jackdog and, I'm sure, several of our other posters have done (ronryder comes to mind).
Ladies and Gentlemen, that sort of encounter is guaranteed to be bloody. Its almost the same as here in civilian life. except folks are generally more mindful of silly rules put in place by foolish men who have never had to test their mettle against another human who wanted to kill them.
I suggest that, before you scoff at posts about point shooting, that you investigate a little more! You're guaranteed to learn something! More than likely you will find it useful. I know I did when I first started learning it. (and yes, I've actually had some notable folks tell me I didn't know what I was talking about...turns out that when it came time for THEM to be tested, they ran)
Point shooting can be the difference between stopping your opponent from acting, I.E disrupting his plan of attack, with a bullet (it may not be placed directly in the 10 ring but often times, killing a person isn't a classroom exercise) and that split second where you fail and lose your life or that of your family.
This isn't a nice subject. I'm sorry to be blunt and I've sanitized this post as much as I know how. I posted it like this in the hopes that the opponents of point shooting would think carefully and investigate more fully. why? not to prove I'm right, but in the hopes that it may help you out in a time when the only tools you will have to live for the next few minutes is your mind, your knowledge, your training and your pistol.
The truth is that sometimes it's an ugly world out there. Bad things will never happen like you plan for them. I think an aquaintance on another gun board put it best.."in a perfect world, you would draw, take careful aim and squeeze gently..in reality, you get off the X as fast as you can and shoot them into the ground."
These guys are old in a time when so many of us don't GET to grow old. Logic dictates that they've gotten to where they are by careful thought, decent planning and a little luck.
Everyone is welcome to believe as they please. As for me? when I see these old timers post their simple wisdom, I think of my Grandmother, who lived to be 104 years old. She had a 16 gauge side by side shotgun to help those who didn't understand that she meant what she said.
I asked her once, when she was 86, how she got to be so old. She replied "I mind my own business, and make sure others do the same".
In truth, these old timers have been our age. we've never been theirs.. I have respect for them just for that!
I realize there are several different ways to do things. I also know what some of you other fellows don't. I'm privy to the fact that Jackdog had more than a couple of tours in war zones. The bloody ugly ones too. You spend a couple of years doing that sort of thing and, providing you survive, you learn quite a bit about the human animal. what they're capable of, what they will do. you learn to size a person up when you meet them. For a friend, you learn to look for quality, because, anything else is a risk to yourself and all you hold dear. It makes for a pretty spartan life, friend wise..but you know the ones you have will go over the mountain to get the coon for you if you need it.
You also learn the no bullshit rules for surviving a gunfight. The alternative is very simple. you get dead.
At one time I was young and stupid and I too joined the Infantry and went off to participate in Uncle Sam's school for wayward children. I too learned in the manner that Jackdog and, I'm sure, several of our other posters have done (ronryder comes to mind).
Ladies and Gentlemen, that sort of encounter is guaranteed to be bloody. Its almost the same as here in civilian life. except folks are generally more mindful of silly rules put in place by foolish men who have never had to test their mettle against another human who wanted to kill them.
I suggest that, before you scoff at posts about point shooting, that you investigate a little more! You're guaranteed to learn something! More than likely you will find it useful. I know I did when I first started learning it. (and yes, I've actually had some notable folks tell me I didn't know what I was talking about...turns out that when it came time for THEM to be tested, they ran)
Point shooting can be the difference between stopping your opponent from acting, I.E disrupting his plan of attack, with a bullet (it may not be placed directly in the 10 ring but often times, killing a person isn't a classroom exercise) and that split second where you fail and lose your life or that of your family.
This isn't a nice subject. I'm sorry to be blunt and I've sanitized this post as much as I know how. I posted it like this in the hopes that the opponents of point shooting would think carefully and investigate more fully. why? not to prove I'm right, but in the hopes that it may help you out in a time when the only tools you will have to live for the next few minutes is your mind, your knowledge, your training and your pistol.
_________________
"What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by Disgruntled on Wed 1 Jul - 10:25
towerclimber - 
Undoubtedly one of the best posts I've ever read here - or elsewhere.
Reality isn't as pretty as most want to believe, and we all need to be able to deal with reality before reality deals with us...
Experience is the best teacher, and the second best is learning from those who have it.
ETA: I'd suggest if you aren't point shooting now, practice. And have your woman and kids practice... jackdog gave me some pointers, and I can't say how much it's helped my gun-handling confidence and competency. - and thanks again, jackdog.
Undoubtedly one of the best posts I've ever read here - or elsewhere.
Reality isn't as pretty as most want to believe, and we all need to be able to deal with reality before reality deals with us...
Experience is the best teacher, and the second best is learning from those who have it.
ETA: I'd suggest if you aren't point shooting now, practice. And have your woman and kids practice... jackdog gave me some pointers, and I can't say how much it's helped my gun-handling confidence and competency. - and thanks again, jackdog.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by Guest on Wed 1 Jul - 22:30
I believe there is a huge difference between shooters like James and Jackdog compared to a lot of people who believe point and shoot is the best method to shoot. Many of these people learn this style from watching too much tv. I'll prefrence that by saying the range I often shoot at is in a metro area with 30 lanes. With out exception there are always a few guys in the twenties and thirties that just let loose with a full mag, one hand grip and pointing down range. Some go as far to hold the pistol sideways to have that gansta look. While a few rounds hit the target they are more impressed with how quickly they were able to dump the mag down range.
My experience is, eight years in the USMC including two combat tours and three years as a LEO. Have have been shot at and I have returned fire. In combat with out question I didn't always hit the threat and at times it was all about throwing as many rounds in the direction of the threat as possible. As a LEO it was far different at least for me. I was truly concerned with my rounds hitting the threat and not hitting someone else.
Now I carry for personal defense and in a pinch I would use flash sight but I doubt that I would be able to point and shoot unless the threat was withing 10-15 feet. While I expect that I could hit a target at a further distance using point and shoot my personal beleifes prevent me from doing so. I feel very strongly about being responsible for where my rounds end up and I honestly couldn't live with myself if I killed an inocent person becasue I didn't aquire a target.
On the other thread I didn't intend to disrespect anyone but I do believe that too many shooters are accepting a shooting practice that they simply aren't qualified for. You should be truly skilled in sight and flash sight shooting well before you consider point and shoot as a reasonable shooting practice but I see more and more people skipping over the fundementals and acting like the action hero in the movies. I also beleve that in most senerios you have enough time to aquire a target before you pull the trigger. I have seen some truly good point and shooter's and have a great deal of respect for them. I consider myself a skilled shooter with real life experience but not the quality of these shooter's. Many can say they are good at point and shoot but from what I have seen it is a true talent that few honestly posess. They may hit the threat if they dump a full mag at the threat but what about the erant rounds, where do they end up in a urban area?
My experience is, eight years in the USMC including two combat tours and three years as a LEO. Have have been shot at and I have returned fire. In combat with out question I didn't always hit the threat and at times it was all about throwing as many rounds in the direction of the threat as possible. As a LEO it was far different at least for me. I was truly concerned with my rounds hitting the threat and not hitting someone else.
Now I carry for personal defense and in a pinch I would use flash sight but I doubt that I would be able to point and shoot unless the threat was withing 10-15 feet. While I expect that I could hit a target at a further distance using point and shoot my personal beleifes prevent me from doing so. I feel very strongly about being responsible for where my rounds end up and I honestly couldn't live with myself if I killed an inocent person becasue I didn't aquire a target.
On the other thread I didn't intend to disrespect anyone but I do believe that too many shooters are accepting a shooting practice that they simply aren't qualified for. You should be truly skilled in sight and flash sight shooting well before you consider point and shoot as a reasonable shooting practice but I see more and more people skipping over the fundementals and acting like the action hero in the movies. I also beleve that in most senerios you have enough time to aquire a target before you pull the trigger. I have seen some truly good point and shooter's and have a great deal of respect for them. I consider myself a skilled shooter with real life experience but not the quality of these shooter's. Many can say they are good at point and shoot but from what I have seen it is a true talent that few honestly posess. They may hit the threat if they dump a full mag at the threat but what about the erant rounds, where do they end up in a urban area?
Guest- Guest
Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by towerclimber on Thu 2 Jul - 1:30
Good point WD.
Those guys ARE old..they've had plenty of time to hone those skills.
Fundamentals are always a part of shooting if you intend to hit your target. You also hit on a critical key for survival. Awareness.
Many times folks get caught up with what they're doing and they're not always aware of their surroundings.
I read a study once, on how human predators pick their targets and 99% of the time, they would look for people who didn't look around..watched the ground as they walked..who seemed to be withdrawn from their surroundings. This allowed the predators to get close enough to get them, or they used a ruse to get close enough to spring their trap.
Point shooting isn't for novice shooters who've never held a pistol in their lives. it CAN however, be learned right along with the fundamentals.
It's not like a glock..you can incorporate the safety aspect of firearm use into your point shooting technique. (that's for the crack about my glocks, Jackdog).
I can tell you right now that I don't practice point shooting as much as I should. I tend to practice more heavily on the skills I'm comfortable with.
Point shooting isn't for everyone. it's a hard skill to master. Still, because it's hard is no reason to quail at the attempt.
Those guys ARE old..they've had plenty of time to hone those skills.
Fundamentals are always a part of shooting if you intend to hit your target. You also hit on a critical key for survival. Awareness.
Many times folks get caught up with what they're doing and they're not always aware of their surroundings.
I read a study once, on how human predators pick their targets and 99% of the time, they would look for people who didn't look around..watched the ground as they walked..who seemed to be withdrawn from their surroundings. This allowed the predators to get close enough to get them, or they used a ruse to get close enough to spring their trap.
Point shooting isn't for novice shooters who've never held a pistol in their lives. it CAN however, be learned right along with the fundamentals.
It's not like a glock..you can incorporate the safety aspect of firearm use into your point shooting technique. (that's for the crack about my glocks, Jackdog).
I can tell you right now that I don't practice point shooting as much as I should. I tend to practice more heavily on the skills I'm comfortable with.
Point shooting isn't for everyone. it's a hard skill to master. Still, because it's hard is no reason to quail at the attempt.
_________________
"What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"
towerclimber- Registration date: 2009-04-02
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by James on Thu 2 Jul - 5:00
WDBradley wrote:My experience is, eight years in the USMC including two combat tours and three years as a LEO. Have have been shot at and I have returned fire. In combat with out question I didn't always hit the threat and at times it was all about throwing as many rounds in the direction of the threat as possible. As a LEO it was far different at least for me. I was truly concerned with my rounds hitting the threat and not hitting someone else.
Now I carry for personal defense and in a pinch I would use flash sight but I doubt that I would be able to point and shoot unless the threat was withing 10-15 feet. While I expect that I could hit a target at a further distance using point and shoot my personal beleifes prevent me from doing so. I feel very strongly about being responsible for where my rounds end up and I honestly couldn't live with myself if I killed an inocent person becasue I didn't aquire a target.
Military shooting, except for the snipers of course, is not about pinpoint accuracy. It's more like how many pounds of lead you can throw in a short time and scare the hell out of em. How many rounds do they figure in combat it takes to get 1 kill now? It's an amazing figure, but under the conditions faced an understandable one. As for leo involved shootings it seems more like the majority also believe in the pound theory also rather than 1 shot 1 kill.
Perhaps we only hear about the spectacular shootings where 50-100 shots are fired and the bad guy walks away or is only hit 2 or 3 times, but those do seem to be a rather common occurrence any more, but then that may be because they seldom go up against bad guys with a 38 revolver any more nor do they use one but instead use the mighty Glock with 17-18 shots or full auto AR16's. I used to watch a San Jose police officer practice at the range with his AR... his accuracy was god awful, but boy could he burn up the ammo quickly.
In the 50's while attending college i took some police courses, one of which was shooting the different weapons the police mostly used at the time. They were a 38 revolver, a 12 guage pump shotgun. Not bragging, but as a farm boy i was a better shot than the instructors. Watched a shooting exhibition once at the Calif highway patrol academy, i was not impressed by their powers. While i am quite sure that out there in the vast waste land there are more than a couple of well practiced and quite accurate cops with a hand gun, but it has been my experience that the big majority of them are very deficient in their abilities with a weapon and certainly need more training and a lot more practice than they get.
Did i give the impression that i think point shooting is the end all way of self defense? Sorry if i did so as it most certainly is not. There isn't a simple one style fits all system out there, everyone rides a different horse and everyones talents differ. Most people can learn point shooting if they really want to and practice enough to get comfortable with it. Not all for sure, and if it isn't your cup of tea, then don't do it. The same can be said for weapons with manual safeties, practice the moves it takes to use them properly or buy a gun without one. Notice the common thread here... PRACTICE...
You made mention of point & shoot no more than 10-15 feet. How about 10 to 15 yards? As far as i am concerned that is an acceptable range for point and shoot. I prefer 7 to 10 yards, but would certainly not rule out 15 automatically. In fact i would be willing to make a small bet that at 7-10 yards i will pay you 1 dollar for every shot that misses black on a man sized target if you pay me 1 dollar for every one that hits. If i were 20 years younger i would go to the 15 yards and make it 5 bucks a shot.
Everyone is different and no one thing works for all. Just because one can't or won't learn point shooting does not make it worthless. For some it works fine and what ever works for you is fine. Myself i use a combination of point and aim shooting. Usually the first 2 rounds will be point and then mostly aim after that, it works for me.
Your point about a lot of people going off half cocked so to speak and blazing away trying to do it like the tv people do is well taken, there is no doubt about that at all. I am not talking about that type of shooting in any way. Old time cowboy type shooting is mostly myth and Hollywood hype. In truth there were many more shot in the back or ambushed than stood up against face to face. And even then it was mostly done on the # of pounds of lead you could throw not on pin point accuracy.
Point shooting even for someone with a little talent for it is not something that is just there. It has to be learned and it has to be practiced. Will it work every time? I hardly think so, but if you practice enough it can give you a slight (notice i said slight) edge. It certainly doesn't happen at once, just like using the sights does not happen all at once. Practice, practice, and more practice is what it takes for either method. Some people never get worth a darn at either. 20-30 years ago i wasn't to bad. Never what i would call really good and certainly no where near expert. Now my eyesight isn't very good and i more or less shoot on the way by the target but it still works or me.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by ronryder on Thu 2 Jul - 13:47
A good friend, who has used a pistol for serious use multiple times, and competition, went through Gunsites courses , beat everyone there, both time and hits across the course.
He whipped even the instructors times and accuracy.
Cooper advised
"your groups are too tight, you should pic up your speed"
OK, the man is already at near superhuman times,not shooting a "race gun" but a real 45 hardball gun.
And he uses a front sight, as do ALL the fast and winning speed shooters to my knowledge.
If when shooting for speed, ignoring the sights was effective and was reliable enough to take home the gold, they would use what ever claimed advantage a faster first shot offered.
But they know a pointed shot is less likely to hit the target,thus they all rely on their sights, and those the ones shooting at speeds none of us here are likely able too.
Is anyone here claiming that they can beat someone like Miculek, or any of the top shooters, because of the "point shootings" advantage?
Here is a suggestion, turn that sillouhete target some are practicing on, or maybe cut it in half, presenting a more life like target.
The bad guy may actually squatting down, or turned sideways, which turns all those edge hits on a front facing target into complete misses.
Or, enter a plate or pin match sometime, and shoot against someone else where your blood is pumping along with being a bit nervous.
Then quick like a bunny, point shoot those first few shots, after all the other guy is against you as well. Just hope he isnt a sight shooter.
Not near like a real life rodeo, but probably about as close as most of us have a chance to practice.
Practicing on life size bad guy targets,is a lot like the target shooter that went deer hunting first time.
The deer was not standing broadside, and his heart was beating way faster than it ever had before. I have missed more than one critter due to buck fever.
Maybe its semantics
If what others call "point shooting", involves some use of the sights,
than that makes some sense too me.
But if not, while the majority of guys that are in actual gunfights, report using their sights, than I am not certain why a guy should practice anything else.
He whipped even the instructors times and accuracy.
Cooper advised
"your groups are too tight, you should pic up your speed"
OK, the man is already at near superhuman times,not shooting a "race gun" but a real 45 hardball gun.
And he uses a front sight, as do ALL the fast and winning speed shooters to my knowledge.
If when shooting for speed, ignoring the sights was effective and was reliable enough to take home the gold, they would use what ever claimed advantage a faster first shot offered.
But they know a pointed shot is less likely to hit the target,thus they all rely on their sights, and those the ones shooting at speeds none of us here are likely able too.
Is anyone here claiming that they can beat someone like Miculek, or any of the top shooters, because of the "point shootings" advantage?
Here is a suggestion, turn that sillouhete target some are practicing on, or maybe cut it in half, presenting a more life like target.
The bad guy may actually squatting down, or turned sideways, which turns all those edge hits on a front facing target into complete misses.
Or, enter a plate or pin match sometime, and shoot against someone else where your blood is pumping along with being a bit nervous.
Then quick like a bunny, point shoot those first few shots, after all the other guy is against you as well. Just hope he isnt a sight shooter.
Not near like a real life rodeo, but probably about as close as most of us have a chance to practice.
Practicing on life size bad guy targets,is a lot like the target shooter that went deer hunting first time.
The deer was not standing broadside, and his heart was beating way faster than it ever had before. I have missed more than one critter due to buck fever.
Maybe its semantics
If what others call "point shooting", involves some use of the sights,
than that makes some sense too me.
But if not, while the majority of guys that are in actual gunfights, report using their sights, than I am not certain why a guy should practice anything else.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by 2HOW on Thu 2 Jul - 13:58
Its the years old pissing match between the "modern tecnique" and the "point shooters" It really incompasses both in different ways. Point shooting is used on the draw 1/4 , 1/2 and full hip, once you bring the gun up to eye level you use the sights, point shooting is mostly used on the move where sights are not able to be aquired. Its a big pissing match boys that have been going on for decades. What it all comes down to IMO is the guys who think they can stand and fire with the enemy " and be killed"and the guys who want to "shoot on the go" and live .
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by towerclimber on Thu 2 Jul - 17:21
Good point....one of murphy's laws.
Incoming fire has the right of way...LOL!
Incoming fire has the right of way...LOL!
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by Guest on Fri 3 Jul - 21:13
James wrote:WDBradley wrote:My experience is, eight years in the USMC including two combat tours and three years as a LEO. Have have been shot at and I have returned fire. In combat with out question I didn't always hit the threat and at times it was all about throwing as many rounds in the direction of the threat as possible. As a LEO it was far different at least for me. I was truly concerned with my rounds hitting the threat and not hitting someone else.
Now I carry for personal defense and in a pinch I would use flash sight but I doubt that I would be able to point and shoot unless the threat was withing 10-15 feet. While I expect that I could hit a target at a further distance using point and shoot my personal beleifes prevent me from doing so. I feel very strongly about being responsible for where my rounds end up and I honestly couldn't live with myself if I killed an inocent person becasue I didn't aquire a target.
Military shooting, except for the snipers of course, is not about pinpoint accuracy. It's more like how many pounds of lead you can throw in a short time and scare the hell out of em. How many rounds do they figure in combat it takes to get 1 kill now? It's an amazing figure, but under the conditions faced an understandable one. As for leo involved shootings it seems more like the majority also believe in the pound theory also rather than 1 shot 1 kill.
Perhaps we only hear about the spectacular shootings where 50-100 shots are fired and the bad guy walks away or is only hit 2 or 3 times, but those do seem to be a rather common occurrence any more, but then that may be because they seldom go up against bad guys with a 38 revolver any more nor do they use one but instead use the mighty Glock with 17-18 shots or full auto AR16's. I used to watch a San Jose police officer practice at the range with his AR... his accuracy was god awful, but boy could he burn up the ammo quickly.
In the 50's while attending college i took some police courses, one of which was shooting the different weapons the police mostly used at the time. They were a 38 revolver, a 12 guage pump shotgun. Not bragging, but as a farm boy i was a better shot than the instructors. Watched a shooting exhibition once at the Calif highway patrol academy, i was not impressed by their powers. While i am quite sure that out there in the vast waste land there are more than a couple of well practiced and quite accurate cops with a hand gun, but it has been my experience that the big majority of them are very deficient in their abilities with a weapon and certainly need more training and a lot more practice than they get.
Did i give the impression that i think point shooting is the end all way of self defense? Sorry if i did so as it most certainly is not. There isn't a simple one style fits all system out there, everyone rides a different horse and everyones talents differ. Most people can learn point shooting if they really want to and practice enough to get comfortable with it. Not all for sure, and if it isn't your cup of tea, then don't do it. The same can be said for weapons with manual safeties, practice the moves it takes to use them properly or buy a gun without one. Notice the common thread here... PRACTICE...
You made mention of point & shoot no more than 10-15 feet. How about 10 to 15 yards? As far as i am concerned that is an acceptable range for point and shoot. I prefer 7 to 10 yards, but would certainly not rule out 15 automatically. In fact i would be willing to make a small bet that at 7-10 yards i will pay you 1 dollar for every shot that misses black on a man sized target if you pay me 1 dollar for every one that hits. If i were 20 years younger i would go to the 15 yards and make it 5 bucks a shot.
Everyone is different and no one thing works for all. Just because one can't or won't learn point shooting does not make it worthless. For some it works fine and what ever works for you is fine. Myself i use a combination of point and aim shooting. Usually the first 2 rounds will be point and then mostly aim after that, it works for me.
Your point about a lot of people going off half cocked so to speak and blazing away trying to do it like the tv people do is well taken, there is no doubt about that at all. I am not talking about that type of shooting in any way. Old time cowboy type shooting is mostly myth and Hollywood hype. In truth there were many more shot in the back or ambushed than stood up against face to face. And even then it was mostly done on the # of pounds of lead you could throw not on pin point accuracy.
Point shooting even for someone with a little talent for it is not something that is just there. It has to be learned and it has to be practiced. Will it work every time? I hardly think so, but if you practice enough it can give you a slight (notice i said slight) edge. It certainly doesn't happen at once, just like using the sights does not happen all at once. Practice, practice, and more practice is what it takes for either method. Some people never get worth a darn at either. 20-30 years ago i wasn't to bad. Never what i would call really good and certainly no where near expert. Now my eyesight isn't very good and i more or less shoot on the way by the target but it still works or me.
James,
I don't believe that I said you thought point and shoot was the end all. I mentioned you because I expect you are one of the few that truly can point an shoot with result. I believe point and shoot has true value, my point was that many think they can do this when they truly aren't qualified. It is a true skill and with my expereince something I havent mastered.
As for the bet I think I preferenced in my first post that you were one on the guys that could do the point and shoot at a far greater distance. I also expressed my comfront zone in usinging this method. I didn't expect a challenge, just expressed where I would use point and shoot. I don't understand where the hostility comes from. I expressed my expereince and my ability. I don't think I scoffed at those that have the skill, just put out a concern that there are many that skip the basics and believe they have the skill. It's not something learned with out a great deal of practice.
If it helps go to the range and send me a bill . I'll be happy to pay it.
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Re: Perfect example of point v sights
by Guest on Fri 3 Jul - 21:26
towerclimber wrote:Good point WD.
Those guys ARE old..they've had plenty of time to hone those skills.
Fundamentals are always a part of shooting if you intend to hit your target. You also hit on a critical key for survival. Awareness.
Many times folks get caught up with what they're doing and they're not always aware of their surroundings.
I read a study once, on how human predators pick their targets and 99% of the time, they would look for people who didn't look around..watched the ground as they walked..who seemed to be withdrawn from their surroundings. This allowed the predators to get close enough to get them, or they used a ruse to get close enough to spring their trap.
Point shooting isn't for novice shooters who've never held a pistol in their lives. it CAN however, be learned right along with the fundamentals.
It's not like a glock..you can incorporate the safety aspect of firearm use into your point shooting technique. (that's for the crack about my glocks, Jackdog).
I can tell you right now that I don't practice point shooting as much as I should. I tend to practice more heavily on the skills I'm comfortable with.
Point shooting isn't for everyone. it's a hard skill to master. Still, because it's hard is no reason to quail at the attempt.
I don't know if they are old, then again what is old? I know I'm no longer young does that make me old? I believe you have to master the skill of you pistol before you should consider point and shoot as an option. Someday I will work on point and shoot but before I will be a master shooter with my personal firearm. Might be more responsibilty than required but it's how I like to do things.
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