Bedding a Remington Stock

I've been shooting a Remington 700 SPS in 204. I'm very happy with the action and the accuracy was pretty good with room for improvement. I pulled the SPS stock off and installed a Remington VLS stock. The barrel is now free floated and I'm thinking about bedding the action. The question becomes, Glass bedding, Pillar bedding, or both? I'm looking to take as much of the rifle out of the missed shots equation. Opinions? Thanks.
Don

There is too much to cover the topic in a few paragraphs, Unless a guy has a real deal bench rifle, pillar bedding is overkill, but typical glass bedding may or may not improve what you now get.

You have to define if bedding is at fault. Unless the rifle is shooting strong vertical or horizontal strings, bedding would be the last thing to look at.

If you are "missing" shots, thats something else. Bedding or not bedding means the difference between a one minute group, verses a one and a half minute group.

If you are missing total, its either the nut behind the trigger, or the scope, or the wind, or a combination of all three.

What do your groups look like at present? Stringing? Or "round"?

Finally! Something I can help someone with in the gunsmithing section. LOL

Bedding your gun may not be the solution you are looking for.

Assuming your ammunition, optics, and scope rings/mounts are of good quality and you know how to pull a trigger, what we need to look at is your shot groups as RonRyder stated above.

Now, one three shot string isn't going to tell you much. It doesn't say anything actually. Neither will six shots or even ten shots on a clean barrel.We need average predictable performance levels.If the bore is clean, blast 10-15 rounds down range any way you want. Blast a few rocks or something. The bore needs to get fouled and it needs to "settle down."

Now, bag or bi pod the rifle and begin shooting five shot groups. I'd do this until you had 25 well aimed rounds down range. (More certainly won't hurt) let the barrel get warmed up. Don't fret about the heat from 35-40 rounds of ammunition fired in a continuous slow fire pace. NRA highpower course guns see far more abuse and they shoot fine all day long. No worries of making your barrel like Chernobyl. A 223 bolt gun will run for at least 7000 rounds.

Now, begin examining your shot groups.

This again is assuming everything else is right. No parallax in your scope, no loose rings or bases, bad ammo, etc. . .

Vertical stringing:

1. You can't hold elevation.(Meaning you don't hold the same on the target for each shot fired)
2. Ammo was/is loaded with thrown charges (I'll come back to this)
3. Bad fit between receiver and stock.
4. Bad crown.
5. Barrel is touching the stock someplace (if floated)

Thrown charges:

If you are shooting a 223 at 100 yards, this isn't going to apply to you. the bullet is going so fast that if there's velocity variance between one and the next from having charges "tossed", it won't amount to anything on paper. Bench rest proves this. All the top dogs throw their charges and they compete from 100 to 300 yards.

Long distance is another story. The minute variations in velocity that don't do anything at 100-300 yards suddenly make for big changes out at 600 and beyond. Here you have to scale your powder charges.

Big round groups:

1. You are looking at the target instead of focusing on the reticle.
2. You have a lemon for a barrel.
3. Not enough or excessive guard screw torque.
4. Bad crown.
5. Crap ammo.
6. Twist rate doesn't match the bullet weight.

Tight to reasonable group with an "orphan" out in left field.

1. You jerked it.
2. You load your own and possibly didnt pay enough attention to detail.
3. You bought ammo and got a bad one.
4. You're crown is goofy.
5. You're gun needs bedding.
6. Guard screw torque needs to be fussed with.

Tight to reasonable groups shot on different days with the same lot of ammo that are always at a different location on paper. (point of aim verses point of impact)

1. Your gun needs to be bedded.
2. You possibly are banging your scope around.
3. You keep cleaning your gun after every time you shoot. (more on this)

Clean your gun's barrel when you notice an obvious reduction in performance/accuracy. Who cares if its coppered up as long as its shooting well? Seriously. As long as its not loaded up so bad that you are smoking primers from high pressure (extreme case) you are fine to leave a barrel fouled. Your better off actually. Leave the "cold bore clean barrel shots" to the "snipers" on TV.


Horizontal stringing:

1. Velocity of ammunition is too slow
2. You don't hold well.


For what ever reason, slow ammo seems to string left and right as opposed to up and down. I dont know why this is.

Bedding done properly will do the following:

It'll settle down a gun that changes from one day to the next.
It'll tighten up good groups and make them even better good groups
It'll reduce fliers.
It'll repeat point of aim/point of impact in any weather and no matter how many times you take apart and reassemble the rifle.


What it won't do.

It won't fix a lemon barrel
A bad scope
Bad/poor quality rings/bases
A bad trigger puller


Hope this helped you in your endeavors and good luck.

I would agree with about 95% of that Brick, but it will be interesting to see if he gets back or not.

Free floating depends on the barrel. sporter weight tubes often shoot better with some fore end pressure while heavy ones tend to like free floating.

IME vertical stringing (assuming the shooter is breaking the shot correctly) is generally a bedding or barrel pressure issue. Stringing due to ammo would indicate large variance in the load, not that they were too slow, but that one was slow, one was fast, and back and forth.

But as you hint, there are so many variables, a guy has to narrow each one down as he goes along, to get the real problem.

ronryder wrote:I would agree with about 95% of that Brick, but it will be interesting to see if he gets back or not.

Free floating depends on the barrel. sporter weight tubes often shoot better with some fore end pressure while heavy ones tend to like free floating.

IME vertical stringing (assuming the shooter is breaking the shot correctly) is generally a bedding or barrel pressure issue. Stringing due to ammo would indicate large variance in the load, not that they were too slow, but that one was slow, one was fast, and back and forth.

But as you hint, there are so many variables, a guy has to narrow each one down as he goes along, to get the real problem.

Yes, it will be interesting to know what results he has if he gets back to us. The narrowing down of all the possibilities is what makes the accuracy game of rifle shooting fun, but thats just me.

Im not sure but if the gun is bedded properly, whether needed or not, would it hurt anything? m thinking no,but i would like to hear your opinion.

First, let me say Thank You for all the replies. Very much appreciated!
I just returned from a trip to a friends ranch which is one of the few places to shoot around here (PRK) that's outdoors, legal and 4-500 yard possible. Unfortunately the weather didn't cooperate with daytime high of 39, misty with a near constant gusting wind @ 15-25MPH. My shooting was a very short session of 90 min trying to sight in two rifles, both Rem 700, one VLS 308 and the SPS 204 which now wears a VLS stock. Got both to hit 2.5 inch groups at 100yds which given the conditions and my numb by this time hands, I wasn't displeased. Obviously, a serious sighting in and a beginning diagnosis will have to wait till the next good weather weekend. So I'm going to leave the rifles as they are until then. I promise to update this thread as soon as I have any new information or more likely, more questions! Thanks Again for the replies and Look Forward to solving The Riddle Of The Unbedded Remington!

donputz wrote:First, let me say Thank You for all the replies. Very much appreciated!
I just returned from a trip to a friends ranch which is one of the few places to shoot around here (PRK) that's outdoors, legal and 4-500 yard possible. Unfortunately the weather didn't cooperate with daytime high of 39, misty with a near constant gusting wind @ 15-25MPH. My shooting was a very short session of 90 min trying to sight in two rifles, both Rem 700, one VLS 308 and the SPS 204 which now wears a VLS stock. Got both to hit 2.5 inch groups at 100yds which given the conditions and my numb by this time hands, I wasn't displeased. Obviously, a serious sighting in and a beginning diagnosis will have to wait till the next good weather weekend. So I'm going to leave the rifles as they are until then. I promise to update this thread as soon as I have any new information or more likely, more questions! Thanks Again for the replies and Look Forward to solving The Riddle Of The Unbedded Remington!

Yeah, make sure you tell us what results you have found. You have a couple of fine rifles there!

After re-reading your posts, I can answer a few of the posed questions, the shot groups are two or three shots either touching or nearly so, with one or two 1/4-1/2" away at 2 or 5 o'clock and one shot 2 inches further on the same axis as the 1/4-1/2" miss. The farthest away being the first or last shot in the group. All my ammo is scale weighed brass and bullets, and my powder charges for both 204 and 308 are scale weighed on a Pact electronic scale. Scope on the 204 is a Nikko-Stirling NightEater. On the 308 I've got an early BSA 4X16X50. both hold zero very well with the 308 firing 1-1.5 inch groups @ 100 from a concrete bench @ the Junction City Gun Club off a Harris bipod and my left fist under the rear. After removing the rifle from the stock to clear out some blown in sand from the magazine well, the point of impact changed and so did the group size. If I think of any other answers I'll send 'em along! Thanks!

pictures of your targets will help also. Keep us informed.

Just trying to save you a bunch of work.. Quick questions. Is your action screws tight? Alot of people that think that their rifle needs to be bedded actually just need to tighten their action screws. As far as bedding hurting your accuracy, it will not 99.9% of the time. It will either improve it or do absoulutly nothing at all. It is not a hard process. It just takes a little time to do it right.

The old rule of thumb when using a regular screwdriver instead of a torque wrench driver, is to back off screws, tighten the front action screw as tight as you can by hand, and the rear guard screw just tight enough it will not loosen on its own. If during any tightening, you feel a springiness or give, you are bending the action and it needs to be bedded. Some will bend to the point of binding the bolt. A sure sign of poor bedding. But if the action drops in, settles to the bottom, and the screws turn freely until the snug point and tighten right up, with no give or spring, bedding may not make any difference, but again, can't hurt.

A guy does not learn much with 3 shot groups, 5 or 10 really start wringing out the evidence.

If under a minute, its really hard to blame the bedding, but one out 2 minutes is either the wind or might hint at bedding, or again, it depends on how you called the shot.

And until you are calling the shots, in the shooters own mind, he is lost as too what is happening.

Assuming you didnt call the flyer bad, and are honest about calling the shot, its some other issue.

Dont waste time weighing everything, concentrate on throwing the handle same same, and get back too the range.

I suggest shooting several 5 shot groups, and see if any pattern develops, all while keeping one eye on the wind flags of course, and concentrating on breaking the shot with the other eye open.

Don't concentrate on weighing everything? Are you talking about reloading? if you are I don't think I can agree with you? care to elablorate?

many shooters think that if you weigh every powder charge to the "nth" degree and all same same, it will give results on paper. Well, like someone else mentioned elsewhere, the top benchrest guys throw their charges, often times at the bench before shooting.

Some dont even know how many "grains weight" they have, exactly, but are going only by the scale on their measure. Now, they may establish a load by weighing, as do hunters, but once they get it all figured out, they stick with that load.

Many of the ball powders, will throw charges within a couple tenths of a grain out of any of the quality measures, (RCBS/LYMAN/REDDING) as long as you get a consistent routine, IE, one knock or two, or what ever routine you establish, keeping the measures capacity at a consistent level .

Now, with stick powders, and larger cases, lets say 4831 and a 270 Winchester, again thrown charges will offer top accuracy. In the larger cases, you cant tell the difference down range even as much as one to one and a half grains. Due to the stick powder, you have the measure shearing kernels, and a good consistency might be under a grain, but again, you cant see the difference down range.

Even weighing exact charges, velocities can vary 25 to 50 FPS on any given string of 5 or 10 shots.

Why? Well, temperature can affect velocities a great deal, thus if you load same same with a scale, you may get different velocities during the morning during lets say 50 degrees, and then by noon time, you have a 80 degrees ( in certain climates, temps vary 40 50 degrees commonly)

But I have had rifles over a chrono graph, that varied by 40 FPS, and leave one ragged hole. Even if the powder did burn efficiently enough to make it worth the effort to weigh each and every charge, a simple 10 mile gust of wind, can blow the bullet out of the group.

Some guys even weigh their bullets, its an exercise in futility, modern jacketed swaged bullets, wont vary but by a couple tenths of a grain, and thats the hunting bullets. Match grade bullets will likely be closer than that.

One thing that is worth the effort, is to try to maintain cases by batch, or lot, if you are switching between vintage WW cases, and new Rem Peters brass, that is going against the wind for sure, but unless you happen onto a junk piece of brass, and unless you have a super match built bench rifle, the brass is pretty much same same as well, as long as it came from the same original box.

Shooting small groups is a never ending challenge. And the longer the range being tackled, the more wind and mirage come into play. A guy with a precision match rifle, can have his clock cleaned by a guy shooting a 7 mauser, in military configuration, built by slaves in 1942, if the guy shooting the bench rifle, cant read wind and mirage at 400 yards, (or what ever range)

A good 700 Remington, in varmint weight, properly bedded and scoped with a quality scope, in 204 Ruger, should shoot under a half minute all day long. Now, if you want one ragged hole, you may need to start neck turning, trying different brands of bullets, primers, etc.

But the equipment needs to be similar, there is little need to try match bullets, if you have a $19.95 no name scope on top. You will never know if the flyer was the gun, or the scope.

I did not mean to say weighing was a total waste of time, there has too be a base line somewhere, and not all guys have a measure, but to imagine that weighing each charge, is a "have too" for small groups, well, thats simply not the fact, all other things being equal.

I agree with most of what you said. You have to understand that most bencrest shoothers only shoot out to 200 yards. When you start stretching those loads out past 400 yards, then the inconsistincey's will show up...They do for me any way.

I like to have every round as close to exactly the same as possible. That's just me. I like to take all of the variable's out... Do I weigh eavery charge- yes. Do I weight sort all my brass- yes. Do I seperate my match bullets by weight- yes. But then again this is Just my opinion.

I buy match bullets because most of the time they are cheaper than similar priced hunting bullets. As far as weighing every charge for improved accuray.. For me it works. For you it may not. If you are shooting inside 400 yards you will probably never notice it. When you get past that everything that effects your bullet starts multiplying....just m2c